[TPR] Pantera Alignment

[Owen Lee Green]

Is that the royal "we"? Dawg. My decal arrived today. Thanks.

On Tue, Sep 24, 2024, 2:39 PM Mad Dog Antenucci via TPR <
tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote:

> Okay this is a good starting point for ASA....We (ASA) have allot work to
> do!
> Thank you Larry again, for all your lessons learned.
> We have extended A arms and adjustable ride and height shocks but I will
> have Asa replace those and not sure about the camber lock but Asa can check
> those as well as everything else as well.
> Yea its gonna be an investment. Excellent point as well on 17 & 18" tires.
>
> Good Stuff!
>
> Dennis
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 11:02:14 AM PDT, Larry Stock <
> larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
>
>
> I sent this to ASA earlier;
>
> I should say that I spent a lot of money and time with custom precision
> alignments, be prepared to spend $1000 per set up at a custom alignment
> shop.
>
> I also assume that you have front camber locks installed
>
> I didn’t see a ride height/A-Arm flattening corner weighted anything
> specs, but you need to do that first.
>
> Those A-Arms need to be flat and parallel for the steering geometry to
> work as designed, so you need adjustable spring heights
>
> When getting down to designed ride height, it is sometimes challenging to
> get the Right Rear toe to come in with the engine torque and chassis age
> settling. I lost a ¼ degree per year when racing with Right Side ‘Sagging”
> so Adjustable Upper rear A-Arms became a ‘MUST’ over time.
>
>
>
> in my opinion:
>
> Too much front toe, cut those #’s in half
>
> Too much front camber, those are the published 15” tire #’s, you want to
> see .125 degree for 17” or 18” low profile tires
>
> Front Caster looks great
>
>
>
> Rear toe should be less, in the .05 degree
>
> Rear Camber same as the front .12 degree +/-.1
>
>
>
> They might want you to sign a wavier to deviate from published recommended
> 15” wheel alignment specs
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Mad Dog
> Antenucci via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
> *Reply-To: *Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 10:39 AM
> *To: *"tpr at teampanteraracing.com" <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>, Asa Jay
> Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment
>
>
>
> Curious what or where you think we can improve there.?
>
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 07:32:25 PM PDT, Asa Jay Laughton via TPR
> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Found them.
> 2021 Alignment result:
>
>
> 2022 Alignment result:
>
> Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>
> Spokane County ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO
>
> ******************************
>
> https://w7tsc.org
>
> https://www.teampanteraracing.com
>
> On 9/23/2024 16:59, David Carpenter via TPR wrote:
>
> Larry's thoughts on settings: absolutely correct.
>
> 5-7 degrees caster at speed, will react very smooth.
>
> Same caster @ 20-50 mph can be a handful.  (I chose the speed side, &
> loved w the minor downside at slow speeds.
>
>
>
> Yes: toe should be Very Close to Zero.
>
> Like Larry said: even minor Toe Out makes the steering Hunt!!  (You can
> never ever let go of wheel)
>
>
>
> Tire size change:
>
> The alignment was very likely done with the OLD WHEELS!!!
>
>
>
> The alignment specs might been right.
>
> Different wheels may have changed it all!!!
>
>
>
> Alignment can be Checked Only:
>
> Compare print out from when it was done before.
>
>
>
> If 'A' arms adjusted /checked as he suggests:  alignment needs to be done
> AFTER any 'A' arm changes....if you go that route.
>
>
>
> Without a print out of alignment specs: without a ride along: it's dang
> hard to speculate from afar!!
>
>
>
> I've even seen air pressure & tread designs be the culprit!!
>
>
>
> Not that the tread is wrong: but it could be wrong for a certain road
> condition.
>
> Or someone had directional tires.....with Half the arrows wrong!!!!!
>
> (I was SURE I HAD SEEN IT ALL.....TIL THEN!!!)
>
>
>
>
>
> *"I am a part of all that I have met!"*
>
> Alfred Lord Tennyson
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com>
> <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Larry Stock via TPR
> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2024 3:42:05 PM
> *To:* Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> <teampantera at yahoo.com>;
> Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com> <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>;
> Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com> <j.wallace at boston-group.com>;
> Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com> <pmical at patsauto.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment
>
>
>
> Just give me where you are at and I can advise where to go with it.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> *Date: *Monday, September 23, 2024 at 2:01 PM
> *To: *Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com> <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>,
> Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> <larrys at panteraparts.com>
> *Cc: *Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>,
> Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com> <j.wallace at boston-group.com>,
> Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com> <pmical at patsauto.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment
>
>
>
> Excellent feedback....thank you Larry....think we are hitting on the real
> issue which is alignment settings. What I noticed with the added 6 or 7
> degrees of caster was the Pantera LOVED the sweeper turns at speed like it
> did the long straight-aways but it did NOT like the long straight
> aways....so clearly this is alignment settings.
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 01:42:41 PM PDT, Larry Stock
> <larrys at panteraparts.com> <larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I generally set up with spring rates in the 400 pound range +/-50 lbs.,
> with rear springs 25 pounds (+/-25 pounds) more than the front springs.
>
> A-Arms need to be adjusted flat and parallel with the road surface front
> and rear
>
> TOE-IN @ 1/16” on each corner making .125” total front and rear. NOTE any
> rear toe out is loose and squirrely, Front toe out wants to initiate turns
> quickly and dart
>
>
>
> CAMBER with 15” tires negative ½ degree +/-1/4 degree on all 4 corners
>
> CAMBER with 17”-18” tires negative 0-1/4 degree on all 4 corners, with
> 37PSI Front, 35PSI rear tire pressure
>
>
>
> CASTER MAX stock is 2-2-1/2 degrees, Pantera’s wants more with 17”+ tires.
> I get 4-4-1/2 degrees with offset bushings and shaved upper Ball joints.
> Modified or Aluminum A-Arms should give you up to 8 degrees, I’d try 6
> degrees and make sure the steering wheel doesn’t want to cut your hands off
> at the wrist after making a turn. More caster will make the Pantera more
> stable at speed, too much will be a handful when turning.
>
>
>
> Larry Stock
>
>
> Pantera Parts Connection LC
> 550 Mallory Way
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/550+Mallory+Way+Carson+City+NV+89701?entry=gmail&source=g>
> Carson City NV 89701
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/550+Mallory+Way+Carson+City+NV+89701?entry=gmail&source=g>
>
>
> www.PanteraParts.com
> PH  775-283-4411
> Fax 775-283-4410
> Cell 1-800-DeTomaso 800-338-6627
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com>
> <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Owen Lee Green via TPR
> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
> *Reply-To: *Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com> <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, September 23, 2024 at 12:41 PM
> *To: *Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> *Cc: *Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>,
> Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com> <j.wallace at boston-group.com>,
> Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com> <pmical at patsauto.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment
>
>
>
> Slightly softer spring rate in the front might help. Was the front feeling
> like it was bucking at speed? Eg bouncing hard but aero downforce keeping
> the nose down.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 12:36 PM Mad Dog Antenucci via TPR <
> tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote:
>
> I am coming out of my latest COVID Fog but recall Mark and I and some of
> you had discussions on while his Z06 this year and my C8 last year handling
> was no better then how well our Pantera's alignment was set up. Except my
> Pantera in 2022 and again this year (2024) just did not track as well as it
> did in 2021 with 17" front tires.
>
>
>
> Bare with me as I know some of you will have different views here but what
> changed on my Pantera. One was going to 18" front wheels and the other big
> change was adding the extended A arms that Asa put on from Johnny woods.
>
>
>
> Asa suggested the road surface may have been the problem but Mark and I
> have seen just bad road conditions in previous years at 140-160+ speeds. So
> I am leaning now on suspension settings first....and it was suggested
> adding toe in or out may be the problem.
>
>
>
> When I got the Pantera back from As after he had a local alignment shop
> reset suspension the Pantera felt fine at speeds up to a 100 or so but
> unfortunately the only thing that matters is real road conditions at 150+.
> I only average 134 this year and not sure I would have wanted to handle
> much more then 140 comfortably.....that sweet spot for me....a 140-150
> Average....but again something is off.
>
>
>
> Others suggested the wheels might have been off but they were so well
> balanced from the factory only one wheel needed a corrected weight. Much
> better then I ever saw with other vendors wheels. So let me know your
> thoughts but what I hope is that Jim and Pat will come up with what
> settings they are using or others are using on Pantera's running endurance
> speeds.
>
>
>
> Dawg, with flame suit on
>
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