[TPR] Pantera Alignment

Tue Sep 24 14:39:07 PDT 2024

 Okay this is a good starting point for ASA....We (ASA) have allot work to do!Thank you Larry again, for all your lessons learned.We have extended A arms and adjustable ride and height shocks but I will have Asa replace those and not sure about the camber lock but Asa can check those as well as everything else as well.Yea its gonna be an investment. Excellent point as well on 17 & 18" tires.
Good Stuff!
Dennis

    On Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 11:02:14 AM PDT, Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:  

I sent this to ASA earlier;

I should say that I spent a lot of money and time with custom precision alignments, be prepared to spend $1000 per set up at a custom alignment shop.

I also assume that you have front camber locks installed

I didn’t see a ride height/A-Arm flattening corner weighted anything specs, but you need to do that first.

Those A-Arms need to be flat and parallel for the steering geometry to work as designed, so you need adjustable spring heights

When getting down to designed ride height, it is sometimes challenging to get the Right Rear toe to come in with the engine torque and chassis age settling. I lost a ¼ degree per year when racing with Right Side ‘Sagging” so Adjustable Upper rear A-Arms became a ‘MUST’ over time.

in my opinion:

Too much front toe, cut those #’s in half

Too much front camber, those are the published 15” tire #’s, you want to see .125 degree for 17” or 18” low profile tires

Front Caster looks great

Rear toe should be less, in the .05 degree

Rear Camber same as the front .12 degree +/-.1 

They might want you to sign a wavier to deviate from published recommended 15” wheel alignment specs

Larry

From: TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Mad Dog Antenucci via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
Reply-To: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 24, 2024 at 10:39 AM
To: "tpr at teampanteraracing.com" <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
Subject: Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment

Curious what or where you think we can improve there.?

Dennis

On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 07:32:25 PM PDT, Asa Jay Laughton via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote: 

Found them.
2021 Alignment result:

2022 Alignment result:

Asa Jay Laughton - W7TSC, MSgt, USAFR, RetiredSpokane County ARES-RACES-ACS EC/RO******************************     https://w7tsc.orghttps://www.teampanteraracing.com
On 9/23/2024 16:59, David Carpenter via TPR wrote:

Larry's thoughts on settings: absolutely correct.

5-7 degrees caster at speed, will react very smooth.

Same caster @ 20-50 mph can be a handful.  (I chose the speed side, & loved w the minor downside at slow speeds.

Yes: toe should be Very Close to Zero.  

Like Larry said: even minor Toe Out makes the steering Hunt!!  (You can never ever let go of wheel)

Tire size change:

The alignment was very likely done with the OLD WHEELS!!!

The alignment specs might been right.

Different wheels may have changed it all!!!

Alignment can be Checked Only:

Compare print out from when it was done before.

If 'A' arms adjusted /checked as he suggests:  alignment needs to be done AFTER any 'A' arm changes....if you go that route.

Without a print out of alignment specs: without a ride along: it's dang hard to speculate from afar!!

I've even seen air pressure & tread designs be the culprit!!

Not that the tread is wrong: but it could be wrong for a certain road condition.

Or someone had directional tires.....with Half the arrows wrong!!!!!

(I was SURE I HAD SEEN IT ALL.....TIL THEN!!!)

"I am a part of all that I have met!" 

Alfred Lord Tennyson

From: TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Larry Stock via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2024 3:42:05 PM
To: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>; Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>
Cc: Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>; Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com>; Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com>
Subject: Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment 

Just give me where you are at and I can advise where to go with it.

Larry

From: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
Date: Monday, September 23, 2024 at 2:01 PM
To: Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>, Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com>
Cc: Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>, Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com>, Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com>
Subject: Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment

Excellent feedback....thank you Larry....think we are hitting on the real issue which is alignment settings. What I noticed with the added 6 or 7 degrees of caster was the Pantera LOVED the sweeper turns at speed like it did the long straight-aways but it did NOT like the long straight aways....so clearly this is alignment settings.

On Monday, September 23, 2024 at 01:42:41 PM PDT, Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote: 

I generally set up with spring rates in the 400 pound range +/-50 lbs., with rear springs 25 pounds (+/-25 pounds) more than the front springs.

A-Arms need to be adjusted flat and parallel with the road surface front and rear

TOE-IN @ 1/16” on each corner making .125” total front and rear. NOTE any rear toe out is loose and squirrely, Front toe out wants to initiate turns quickly and dart

CAMBER with 15” tires negative ½ degree +/-1/4 degree on all 4 corners

CAMBER with 17”-18” tires negative 0-1/4 degree on all 4 corners, with 37PSI Front, 35PSI rear tire pressure

CASTER MAX stock is 2-2-1/2 degrees, Pantera’s wants more with 17”+ tires. I get 4-4-1/2 degrees with offset bushings and shaved upper Ball joints. Modified or Aluminum A-Arms should give you up to 8 degrees, I’d try 6 degrees and make sure the steering wheel doesn’t want to cut your hands off at the wrist after making a turn. More caster will make the Pantera more stable at speed, too much will be a handful when turning.

Larry Stock

Pantera Parts Connection LC
550 Mallory Way
Carson City NV 89701

www.PanteraParts.com
PH  775-283-4411
Fax 775-283-4410
Cell 1-800-DeTomaso 800-338-6627

From: TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Owen Lee Green via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
Reply-To: Owen Lee Green <oneeyez4263 at gmail.com>
Date: Monday, September 23, 2024 at 12:41 PM
To: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
Cc: Team Racing <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>, Jim Wallace <j.wallace at boston-group.com>, Patrick Mical <pmical at patsauto.com>
Subject: Re: [TPR] Pantera Alignment

Slightly softer spring rate in the front might help. Was the front feeling like it was bucking at speed? Eg bouncing hard but aero downforce keeping the nose down. 

On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, 12:36 PM Mad Dog Antenucci via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote:

I am coming out of my latest COVID Fog but recall Mark and I and some of you had discussions on while his Z06 this year and my C8 last year handling was no better then how well our Pantera's alignment was set up. Except my Pantera in 2022 and again this year (2024) just did not track as well as it did in 2021 with 17" front tires.

Bare with me as I know some of you will have different views here but what changed on my Pantera. One was going to 18" front wheels and the other big change was adding the extended A arms that Asa put on from Johnny woods. 

Asa suggested the road surface may have been the problem but Mark and I have seen just bad road conditions in previous years at 140-160+ speeds. So I am leaning now on suspension settings first....and it was suggested adding toe in or out may be the problem.

When I got the Pantera back from As after he had a local alignment shop reset suspension the Pantera felt fine at speeds up to a 100 or so but unfortunately the only thing that matters is real road conditions at 150+. I only average 134 this year and not sure I would have wanted to handle much more then 140 comfortably.....that sweet spot for me....a 140-150 Average....but again something is off.

Others suggested the wheels might have been off but they were so well balanced from the factory only one wheel needed a corrected weight. Much better then I ever saw with other vendors wheels. So let me know your thoughts but what I hope is that Jim and Pat will come up with what settings they are using or others are using on Pantera's running endurance speeds.

Dawg, with flame suit on 

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