[TPR] Open Chamber heads with Pop-Up pistons?
Asa Jay Laughton
asajay at asajay.com
Mon May 28 10:58:30 PDT 2012
I'd be interested in the piston photos.
I believe as Chuck pointed out that the pop-up causes a different
problem with the flame-front. The quench chamber doesn't have anything
to impede the flame from traveling across the top of the piston, whereas
the pop-up could create a barrier to efficient flame travel. After
Chuck pointed out Dan had mentioned this before, I remembered it too.
Still, I'd be interested in the photos so I can see the style you chose
and how they fit with a standard open chamber head.
Thanks,
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
http://www.racingagainstautism.com
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 5/28/2012 10:14 AM, David wrote:
> Before I fat-thumbed the previous reply I was going to that one could
> get a set of KB pistons designed just to give some compression fo us
> po boy open chamber folks -that is what is in my "Hall mini Brute" - I
> have pictures if interested. (no pistons for sale- for info only)
>
> My refresh ended up: rings and hone, bearings, cam, lifters, springs,
> flywheel resurface, flow and port intake (just for fun). Valves are
> good but put in the best seals.
>
> I believe Dan told me this was a common fix.
>
> Happy trails
>
> On May 28, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com
> <mailto:asajay at asajay.com>> wrote:
>
>> Alright so this brought a question to my puny brain...
>>
>> We'd all probably love to have closed chamber heads. But what if all
>> I had were some open chamber heads. Would using a pop-up piston work
>> to get the quench down further? Or is it a losing proposition on
>> this head?
>>
>> What are the opinions of the collective Pantera knowledge base?
>>
>> Asa Jay
>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>> & Shelley Marie
>> Spokane, WA
>> ******************************
>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>>
>> On 5/28/2012 9:35 AM, Asa Jay Laughton wrote:
>>> I wouldn't mind picking up another pair of 4V quench heads. I have
>>> two or three pair of open chamber, but only one pair of closed
>>> chamber. Not that I'm greedy or anything.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't mind a pair of Aussie 2V heads with quench chamber, but I
>>> don't think they'd be the best for racing, as I believe you are
>>> pointing out and Chuck has validated since he's moved on as well.
>>>
>>> Asa Jay
>>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>>> & Shelley Marie
>>> Spokane, WA
>>> ******************************
>>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
>>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>>>
>>> On 5/28/2012 6:56 AM, Mad Dog Antenucci wrote:
>>>> Hey Doc,
>>>>
>>>> Since I do it so well let me play devil's advocate here from half
>>>> way around the world.
>>>>
>>>> Why use Aussie heads that only produce 375 to 400 Hp in street form
>>>> when you can run closed chamber Cleveland heads that someone has
>>>> thrown away or 302B and/or any similar alum heads that make so much
>>>> more Hp (475-525 at the REAR wheels)?! ;-]>
>>>>
>>>> If the answer is, "because I don't have cool 302B alum heads like
>>>> you dawg"....or its, "the Aussie heads are just better"...then I
>>>> gotta say since I am IN Australia now and I am hearing from the
>>>> boys down under who want to seriously go fast that they all want
>>>> quench or closed chamber heads. They will pay YOU to take their
>>>> Aussie heads!!! Yea even in street modified weekend race engines
>>>> that get driven on the street. ;-]>
>>>>
>>>> Working for sheep herders wages down under I'll take a Aussie BLOCK
>>>> if I can find one cheeep ecause I know they gotta be special
>>>> because Jack keeps telling me that like he keeps telling me someone
>>>> is gonna make a NEW Cleveland block to replace my 10 over Cleveland
>>>> magic jack block I got from JB but I don't think thats gonna
>>>> happen. I suspect in September when I come back to the States to
>>>> kick some bow tie ass at Silver Sate it will be driving that same
>>>> stock Pantera averaging somewhere around 150 Mph then driving to
>>>> the Green Lantern to shame all the bow tie slackers pretending they
>>>> are real
>>>> racers ;-]>
>>>>
>>>> Okay rant over. Is it too soon to mention who won the Indy? ;-]>
>>>>
>>>> PS did the Drewster ever get his engine running again?
>>>>
>>>> Aussie Dawg Down Under
>>>> Team Pantera Racing
>>>> "No One Gets Out Alive"
>>>> <www.teampanteraracing.com>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
>>>> *To:* 'Asa Jay Laughton' <asajay at asajay.com>;
>>>> detomaso at list.realbig.com; tpr at teampanteraracing.com
>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:06 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [TPR] Piston Ring Rotation.
>>>>
>>>> Dear Asa,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The first and second engines I built were done with the
>>>> standard
>>>> ring positioning protocol. I then learned the truth: the rings *move*
>>>> during engine operation. They do not remain permanently in place.
>>>> The
>>>> first two engines were with Aussie heads and made 401 and 385 hp.
>>>>
>>>> The next two engines were built with 4v heads and absolute
>>>> carefree disregard for the prime ring directive. Dyno testing
>>>> showed 440
>>>> and 485 hp.
>>>>
>>>> I am about to begin the next engine and I will continue
>>>> with my
>>>> laissez-faire piston ring assembly. It doesn't seem to hurt engine
>>>> performance.....!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scientifically yours, Chuck Engles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Original Message-----
>>>> From: tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com
>>>> <mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com>
>>>> [mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com
>>>> <mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com>] On Behalf Of Asa Jay
>>>> Laughton
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:59 PM
>>>> To: detomaso at list.realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at list.realbig.com>;
>>>> tpr at teampanteraracing.com <mailto:tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
>>>> Subject: [TPR] Piston Ring Rotation.
>>>>
>>>> Most of us are aware of the proper ring positioning when assembly
>>>> an engine:
>>>> http://www.351c.info/gallery2/d/218-1/ringspacing.jpg
>>>> The two compression rings should be spaced about 30* (or about one
>>>> inch)
>>>> from the front centerline of the piston, one on either side. The
>>>> oil ring
>>>> segments are the same on the opposite side of the piston toward
>>>> the rear.
>>>> The illustration above shows this quite well.
>>>>
>>>> But do the rings rotate after assembly?
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago at the POCA Fun Rally, Jack had an expert who was
>>>> familiar
>>>> with pistons. He said indeed the rings do rotate, so in the end it
>>>> doesn't
>>>> really matter where you index them to start with...
>>>> they're going to move.
>>>>
>>>> Today I recorded the ring locations on my forensics engine. I had been
>>>> careful not to turn the rings on the pistons when I removed the
>>>> pistons/rods
>>>> from the engine previously. Because I can't insure they didn't
>>>> move at all,
>>>> the relationships below are rounded. Here are the results. My
>>>> "timing" is
>>>> from the -front- of the engine, moving clockwise. The piston
>>>> position at 12
>>>> o'clock is the part facing front, the position at 6 o-clock is at
>>>> the rear.
>>>>
>>>> The first compression ring is at the top, the second on the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Piston 1st Comp 2nd Comp Oil/Oil
>>>> #1 8 o-clock 4 o-clock 4/2
>>>> #2 10 11 12/3
>>>> #3 10 2 10/1 (probably the only one
>>>> closest
>>>> to installed)
>>>> #4 8 8 8/8 (All ring gaps were lined up)
>>>>
>>>> #5 9 2 5/5
>>>> #6 12 9 5/5
>>>> #7 5 4 6/5
>>>> #8 9 3 3/7
>>>>
>>>> As you can see, they are all over the place. I'll work up a good
>>>> illustration and post it later.
>>>>
>>>> Does this mean I won't index them the next time I assemble and engine?
>>>> Actually, I'll most likely still index them when assembling, only
>>>> because
>>>> I'm anal about those things and I do believe spacing them does
>>>> assist with
>>>> initial break in. If they are spaced the same, I look at that as
>>>> an easy
>>>> path for compression gasses to get past. In other words, gases
>>>> might get
>>>> past the lower tension oil ring segments and past the gap in the bottom
>>>> compression ring but then they'll have to travel around the edge a
>>>> while
>>>> before they meet up with the gap in the upper ring. In the end, it
>>>> may not
>>>> really matter.
>>>>
>>>> Asa Jay
>>>> Pantera Research Institute, Pacific Northwest
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>>>> & Shelley Marie
>>>> Spokane, WA
>>>> ******************************
>>>> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
>>>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>>>> http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
>>>>
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>>>
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