<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:14pt"><div></div><div>FYI....responses from Russ to the Pope<br> </div><div><strong><font color="#0000ff"><em>Mad Dawg Antenucci <br></em></font><font color="#ff0000">Team Pantera Racing</font></strong> </div> <div><em><strong><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#007f7f">The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing </font><br></strong></em><font color="#0000ff"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.teampanteraracing.com">www.teampanteraracing.com</a></font></div><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:14pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">----- Forwarded Message ----<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> russell fulp
<musclebyrussell@hotmail.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> adin@frontier.net<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Dennis Antenucci <teampantera@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, June 20, 2011 1:05:12 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: Poly Dist Gear???<br></font><br>
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Answers below in color.<br><br> <br>
<font style="font-size:20pt;" size="5" face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"><em>Russ</em></font> <br>
<em><font face="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Sans-serif"><font size="3"><strong>B.L. Machine & </strong><strong>Russ Fulp Racing Engines</strong></font></font></em><br>
<font style="font-size:8pt;" size="1">1100 E. Orangefair Lane</font><br>
<font style="font-size:8pt;" size="1">Unit E</font><br>
<font style="font-size:8pt;" size="1">Anaheim, CA 92801</font><br>
714-870-8570<br>
<br>
<strong></strong> <br><br><br><div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: adin@frontier.net<br>To: teampantera@yahoo.com; tpr@teampanteraracing.com<br>CC: musclebyrussell@hotmail.com<br>Subject: Re: Poly Dist Gear???<br>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:02:03 -0600<br><br>
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<div>It would seem the cam gear ate the dizzy gear (sharp teeth on the dizzy
gear) but I wouldn't mind knowing the sequence of events. <font style="" color="#FF0000">Well you are partially correct. With the added pressure from the oil pump</font> <font style="" color="#FF0000">it try's to hold the dist. shaft in place and the cam says no way and it turns, machining the gear on both pieces in the process. You see with any friction surface you have to have the hardest surface on the stationary end or the cam. the steel gear by itself is softer than the cam gear but with added back-pressure from the oil pump ,it becomes about the same and that is why it ate up both surfaces. If you had an external oil pump you could run them together all day.</font><br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>In addition it would be good to know:</div>
<div>Was the dizzy gear specified incorrectly? <font style="" color="#FF0000">Everything was probably O.K. to start with but the oil pressure was your culprit.</font><br></div>
<div>Supplied incorrectly?</div>
<div>The little oil squirter trick: why didn't Ford to that?<font style="" color="#FF0000">They did not plan on them turning any kind of RPM that it would necessitate added lubrication.</font> Why do we
have to (guess I know the answer to this one)?</div>
<div>do we know any history of these poly gears? too new? <font style="" color="#FF0000">The Poly gear is softer and will mate with any cam core. Just make sure that you get a gear for a Cleveland or a big block as most of the gears out there are smaller O.D. and of the Windsor variety.</font><br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Curious.</div>
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<div style="font:10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;background:#e4e4e4;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="teampantera@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:teampantera@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:teampantera@yahoo.com">Mad Dog
Antenucci</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="adin@frontier.net" ymailto="mailto:adin@frontier.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:adin@frontier.net">David in Durango</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="tpr@teampanteraracing.com" ymailto="mailto:tpr@teampanteraracing.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:tpr@teampanteraracing.com">TPR
List</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="musclebyrussell@hotmail.com" ymailto="mailto:musclebyrussell@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:musclebyrussell@hotmail.com">russell fulp</a> </div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 20, 2011 10:08
AM</div>
<div style="font:10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Poly Dist Gear???</div>
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<div></div>
<div>Russ,</div>
<div>If you read Mike loooong ;-)> report below you'll see his steel gear
ate his cam ....I know that will come as no surprise to you and yea I remember
what you said about NOT running a steel gear but my question is what if
anything have you heard about the <b><u>poly gear</u></b>?<br><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thanks<br> </div>
<div><strong><font color="#0000ff"><em>Mad Dawg Antenucci <br></em></font><font color="#ff0000">Team Pantera Racing</font></strong> </div>
<div><em><strong><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#007f7f">The 1st &
still the only vintage race team in open road racing
</font><br></strong></em><font color="#0000ff"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.teampanteraracing.com">www.teampanteraracing.com</a></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:14pt;"><br>
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<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> David in Durango <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:adin@frontier.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:adin@frontier.net">adin@frontier.net</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> TPR List <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:tpr@teampanteraracing.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:tpr@teampanteraracing.com">tpr@teampanteraracing.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Mon, June 20, 2011 7:46:23
AM<br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> [TPR] ? - for the
dawg<br></font><br>
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<div>From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:MikeLDrew@aol.com">MikeLDrew@aol.com</a><br>Subject:
[DeTomaso] Pantera fall down go boom :<(<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:detomaso@realbig.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:detomaso@realbig.com">detomaso@realbig.com</a><br>Message-ID:
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:844d.67fcf0e2.3b2fdbb8@aol.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:844d.67fcf0e2.3b2fdbb8@aol.com">844d.67fcf0e2.3b2fdbb8@aol.com</a>><br>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<br><br>Hi guys,<br><br>Those of you who were at
the POCA Fun Rally last weekend perhaps noted that <br>every single Pantera
that drove to the event, safely drove home at the end <br>of the weekend, save
one.<br><br>Unfortunately, that one was mine. :<(<br><br>I've been loving
my new 408 stroker Cleveland, which has utterly <br>transformed the
car. I had a wonderful drive up and over the Sierras, tempering my
<br>enthusiam a bit in deference to the handful of Panteras that were running
<br>with me (also a reflection of a recent run-in with Johnny Law that I
managed to <br>escape from for about $300, but my next ticket will result in
points on my <br>license).<br><br>At the track event, the first thing I did
was to bleed my brakes, as my <br>pedal was soft and squishy. I
got a bit of trapped air out, which improved <br>things, but they are far from
where they should be. I think this is a result <br>of some
uncharacteristically horrible engineering that took place when my <br>friend
who restored the car years ago, fabricated new brake lines. For
<br>reasons unknown, he deliberately placed a big loop in each line, which is
<br>seemingly guaranteed to trap air and result in a spongy pedal--exactly
what I have <br>had all these years. I think I am going to trash
all the hard lines and <br>start over.<br><br>But anyway. Once the
brakes felt up to the task (although far from <br>perfect), I started driving
on the track Thursday afternoon, and the car was much, <br>MUCH faster than
two years ago. I'm still very handicapped by my <br>super-crusty
tires (my intent was to burn them off at this event and then replace <br>them
when I got home) which kept cornering velocities laughably low, but also
<br>provided lots of opportunity for sideways antics at relatively low
speeds.<br><br>Two years ago, I would enter the front straight in 3rd gear,
upshift to 4th <br>at about 5500 rpm, and just be nudging 110 mph when I felt
it was prudent <br>to lift for the first of the three S-curves leading to the
hairpin at the <br>end. This year, with all the extra power, I was
topping 130 mph.<br><br>Whee!<br><br>The thing is, I would reach the 6000 rpm
rev limiter well before the <br>turn-in point. My choices were to
either upshft to 5th gear for just a moment, <br>then back down to 4th, or to
just coast for a bit. Since nobody was paying <br>me for this and
there were no trophies on the line, I elected to do the
<br>latter. My car has an MSD system with the 'soft touch' rev
limiter; the bumpf <br>that comes with the MSD box indicates that there is no
harm in just riding <br>the limiter, as it randomly cuts spark from various
cylinders to keep the RPM <br>at a predetermined maximum point. So
often times, I'd keep my foot to the <br>mat and just ride the limiter for
100-200 feet or more, then lift off and <br>turn in.<br><br>At the end of the
first day, the car was running just a little bit weird. <br>I was
having trouble with the idle speed, and in fact the next morning I <br>had to
turn the idle up quite a bit.<br><br>I then went out for a second day of more
fun and games on the track, and <br>the motor seemed 'off' ever so
slightly. I was driving with a raised <br>eyebrow, and then I came
down the front straight and noted that it was well down on <br>power; with my
foot to the mat it was 20 mph off at the turn-in point. I
<br>determined that I would pull in at the end of the lap for a
look-see.<br><br>Didn't happen. :<(<br><br>When I got to the steep uphill,
the engine started stuttering, and I had my <br>foot on the floor trying to
keep it going to at least the top so I could <br>pull off. But
just before the top, it went POP and quit, leaving me stranded <br>on the side
of the track, and causing a yellow flag in that area for the <br>rest of the
session.<br><br>I figured the distributor shear pin had sheared.
There were no other <br>indications, I had fuel, no clanking noises from the
engine, so it was pretty <br>apparently an ignition issue.<br><br>They threw
the checkered flag and I coasted down the hill to a safe spot <br>and
abandoned the car until lunchtime. Rich Boschert was kind enough
to tow <br>it in to the paddock on his flatbed trailer, and then any number of
<br>volunteers stepped in to help sort it out.<br><br>Steve Liebenow offered
up some shear pins, and I figured I'd be rolling a <br>short time
later. But then the distributor cam out. Bad
news. <br>Distributor gear totally mangled. :<(<br><br>Then we
started thinking about getting a replacement gear from Summit, just <br>down
the road. But Chuck Melton took a look-see down into the engine,
and <br>what he saw was far from good--the drive gear on the end of the
camshaft <br>was destroyed as well. <br><br>Trailer time.
:<(<br><br>Fortunately for me, Rich has to drive within a mile of my house
on his way <br>home. He was kind enough to trailer my Pantera back
to the hotel, and then <br>back home Sunday afternoon, and allow me to follow
behind at the wheel of <br>his lovely green Pantera, so all things considered,
this went about as well <br>as could be expected under the
circumstances. Sunday morning we had an <br>uneventful drive home,
and since we had two other truck/trailers and another <br>Pantera in convoy
with us, it was easy to unload the car and push it into the <br>garage, where
it now sits, sad and forlorn.<br><br>Here's some photos of the gear on the
distributor. All of the teeth were <br>filed razor-sharp, creating
much slop in the timing (the cause for my idle <br>problems no
doubt). But then, a number of teeth simply sheared off
<br>completely, which caused the car to stop dead.<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=32311">http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=32311</a><br><br>When
you click on each photo, it opens up in a normal-sized view, but you <br>can
select the max size, which shows really excellent detail; you can clearly
<br>see where the teeth were literally sheared off.<br><br>I've since been in
touch with Dan Jones, John Christian and others, <br>attempting to determine
the cause of the problem. I was using a steel hydraulic <br>roller
cam core, and a Crane steel gear advertised to work well with such
<br>things. However, I did have a couple of things going against
me:<br><br>1) Excessive oil pressure. I purposely
re-used the oil pump from my <br>previous engine because it delivered 50 psi
there (verified with a mechanical <br>gauge) and I did not want high volume or
high pressure, both of which are bad <br>for Clevelands. However,
my new engine (perhaps due to tighter <br>tolorences) sees the oil pressure
gauge pegged. Probably 80 psi at operating RPM.
<br>The literature that comes with the cam gear says that it will live with a
<br>steel cam, EXCEPT if excessive pressure or volume oil pump is
used. They say <br>that rapid wear will then result--which I
got. So, since oil pumps are <br>cheap, I'm going to start over
from scratch with a new Melling M-84A. (The <br>Summit website is
incorrect and doesn't list this for the 351C, only showing <br>it as
applicable for the 351M and 400M. But in fact this is a 351C pump,
<br>as shown on Melling's website.)<br><br>2) Driving on the rev
limiter. Although MSD says this about their
<br>system:<br><br>There are two ways to limit your rpms. The rough way simply
cuts off <br>ignition spark, which can cause backfiring, extreme engine
roughness, and possible <br>engine damage. The gentle way is with these MSD
Soft Touch rev controllers. <br>They use sophisticated computer circuitry to
drop spark one cylinder at a <br>time, until your engine is at or below its
maximum rpm. Those cylinders are <br>then fired on the next cycle, to prevent
them from loading up with fuel. The <br>result is smooth rev limiting action
without all the rough stuff.<br><br>The truth appears to be that even this
'gentle' process is rather hard on <br>the system, perhaps aggravated by the
fact that I'm running a gear drive <br>instead of a timing chain.
It didn't occur to me that running on the limiter <br>for a few seconds at a
time would stress the system, but in hindsight (and <br>after consultations
with Dan, who hadn't heard of such a thing but <br>subsequently did research
and found other stories of people suffering similar damage to <br>mine after
running on the rev limiter, regardless of whether they were <br>using a timing
chain, gears or whatever) I'm sure that my driving habits on the <br>track
created this problem. I'm going to address this by fitting a
higher <br>RPM pill in the MSD (the motor is built to go to 6500 all day long
but I was <br>being 'conservative' and had a 6000 rpm chip in the MSD) and by
avoiding <br>touching the rev limit, if at all possible, and certainly avoid
deliberately <br>doing so and just keeping it on the limit.<br><br>I think the
gears were perfect when I drove over the hill to Reno, and I <br>just busted
them all to hell at the track.<br><br>Tomorrow I'm ordering a new cam, same as
the old one (did I mention how <br>wonderfully this engine ran?).
Dan also turned me on to a new distributor <br>gear. Tri-Tec
Motorsports now makes a carbon-reinforced polymer distributor <br>gear for the
351C/460.<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.tritecmotorsports.com/Carbon_Ultra-Poly">http://www.tritecmotorsports.com/Carbon_Ultra-Poly</a><br>-Ford_Distributor_Gears.htm<br><br>I
am going to phone them and see what they have to say. I don't want
to <br>run a bronze gear, because of all the maintenance hassles, but a steel
gear <br>might not be as good a bet as one of these glorified plastic
ones. At this <br>point I think I've got nothing to lose by
trying.<br><br>The motor will come out of the car early next month (no time
before then), <br>by which point I should have my new components in
hand. With the help of <br>friends more knowledgable than I am
(which is most of them, when it comes to <br>engines anyway!), I hope to have
it repaired and ready to go in a day, then <br>installed another day
later.<br><br>I will have to pull the oil pan and clean all the metal shavings
out (and <br>also from the front of the engine), and the oil pump pickup is
likely filled <br>with debris. It goes without saying that the oil
filter will be changed as <br>well. While we'll take a look at the
bearings while we're in the <br>neighborhood, I'm fairly confident that the
rest of the motor was unaffected by this <br>little glitch.<br><br>We'll
see!?<br><br>Once it's up and running, I'll pull the distributor every few
thousand <br>miles to inspect for any signs of untoward wear or
failure. I'm hoping this is <br>a one-time situation to be quickly
and relatively painlessly resolved.<br><br>Fingers
crossed!<br><br>Mike<br><br></div><br><br>__________ Information from ESET
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