[TPR] Fwd: Extended A arms
Steve Lisa
stevelisa at patentit.com
Thu Sep 23 14:30:43 PDT 2021
Larry,
We have briefly tried the lower spring rates and felt like the car falls
over and was slower overall - at least for us and our driving style. The
car seems planted just fine, but we are only 6-7 races into it. In a few
weeks we will be at the Classic 24 Hour at Daytona with the Pantera, and we
are surely going to beg over 150 mph at Daytona on the banked road course.
When we go to INDE next, we may bring more sets of springs including the
softer ones and play around some more. The fact is, we are still learning
this car and willing to try different things.
Regards,
Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
*The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
Direct: 480-442-0297
www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
*Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
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Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:52 PM Larry Stock <larrys at panteraparts.com> wrote:
> Hey Steve,
>
> Unless you are running a banked road circuit, try 400 pound springs to
> keep the tires planted a bit softer on changing road surfaces under 130MPH.
>
> Even NASCAR run 400 pound springs on their road course set ups.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of Steve Lisa
> via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
> *Reply-To: *Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 1:17 PM
> *To: *DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> *Cc: *"tpr at teampanteraracing.com" <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>, Chris Terp
> <chris at theseminargroup.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [TPR] Fwd: Extended A arms
>
>
>
> And, to add, we of course corner-weighted, balanced, and aligned it, and
> in the process added some rake as suggested in the prior emails. Next time
> it is on the scales I will get the actual numbers for all of the
> suspension/alignment settings.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
>
> *The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
>
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
>
> Direct: 480-442-0297
>
>
>
> www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
>
>
>
> *Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
> East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> *Chicago Office* |* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
>
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 1:04 PM Steve Lisa <stevelisa at patentit.com> wrote:
>
> FYI to all, and in line with what Dennis has said, we have (among a bunch
> of other things) made the following suspension and cooling mods to the GR3
> Pantera we are racing:
>
> 1. For cooling:
>
>
> 1. We also pinned the hood up 1 1/2 inches.
> 2. We cut holes in the front wall of the front trunk.
> 3. We took out the double fan and put a low-profile single racing
> fan (switch mounted).
> 4. We packed foam around any of the side areas of the radiator
> where could go around the radiator.
> 5. As a result, we are running 185 degrees of water temp at race
> speed, 90 degrees ambient air.
>
>
> 1. We have a massive oil cooler in the back, with a fan sucking air
> from inside to outside. We are running 220 degrees oil temp at race speed.
> 90 degrees ambient air.
> 2. For all A-arms except the front uppers, we burned the original
> rubber bushings burned out, left the original bushing shells in the arms,
> and then fabricated Delrin bushings to replace the original rubber
> bushings. We also used chrome-moly sleeves for the bolts. For the front
> uppers, we cut the end of the arm off and welded chrome-moly uniball cups
> to the ends, to convert them to uniball. We fabricated the spacers. For
> all of the above, every single point on each arm had to be specially made
> due to the factory alignment being shit to make sure there was no binding.
> It was amazing how much easier all of the arms moved through the available
> range without binding. We also made thrust sleeves for the front wheel
> bearings to make them last longer.
> 3. We fabricated front air brake scoops for under the radiator -- I
> think this is a unique problem for the Gr3 cars running the little front
> air dam, as the newer and better front air dams all provide air scoops for
> the brakes. We are using the small holes on our early front air dam to
> mount some lighting for night racing at Daytona.
> 4. We bought the "newer" versions of the basic Koni non-adjustable
> race shocks.
> 5. We are running spring rates - 600 lbs rear and 500 lbs front, and
> 1" sway bars front and rear.
> 6. We are running Hoosier R7's size 275 50/15 rear and 225 50/15
> front. The rear wheels are 10 inches wide and the front wheels are 8
> inches wide.
>
> We did some other things as discussed in the email a few weeks ago (with a
> shared picture folder). But the above suspension and cooling mods are in
> line with the topic of Dennis' discussion, so I thought I would share them
> again.
>
>
>
> I do not believe we changed much by way of castor in the front. We have
> in effect kept the suspension in its stock location but upgraded the pivot
> points. We historically have raced with less castor than others, which is
> a personal preference for both Tony and me.
>
>
>
> So far, with the above setup, Tony and I both feel it is a pretty good GR3
> racecar at speeds up to 140 mph. That is saying a lot considering how many
> racecars we have driven.
>
>
>
> There is more we would want to do if we weren't trying hard to keep it in
> the lower GR3 class and out of GR4.
>
>
>
> Let me know if you need me to reshare the pic folder.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Steven G. Lisa, Esq.
>
> *The Law Offices of Lisa & Lesko, LLC*
>
> Email: SteveLisa at PatentIt.com
>
> Direct: 480-442-0297
>
>
>
> www.PatentIt.com <http://www.patentit.com/>
>
>
>
> *Scottsdale Office* | *P*: 480.535.6656 | *F:* 480.535.6628 | *A:* 7689
> East Paradise Lane, Suite 2, Scottsdale, AZ 85260
>
> *Chicago Office* |* P:* 312.752.4357 | *F:* 312.896.5633 | *A:* 55 E.
> Monroe Street, Suite 3800, Chicago, IL 60603
>
> This email is intended only for the recipient above and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. If you received this email in
> error please destroy it and indicate such by return email to me. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 23, 2021 at 12:07 PM DENNIS ANTENUCCI via TPR <
> tpr at teampanteraracing.com> wrote:
>
> FYI from Mike. Reed below….
>
>
>
> Will qualify my earlier comments below.
>
> In my experience Offset bushings got got 3-4 negative caster. That Was the
> only seat-of-the-pants improvement in high speed handling I ever felt.
>
> Extracting air or moving it around the front end helps but not something
> anyone needs on a Pantera IMO on speeds below 130-140.
>
> Easy mods that should help are
>
>
>
> 1. A raised back end rake
>
> 2. Stops to prop up front hood to extract air
>
> 3. Better coil over double adjustable shocks and GTS springs like Koni or
> Aldan
>
>
>
> When you get into high end speeds above sustained +|- 130 mph speeds on
> these uneven 2-lane roads adding side skirts and an air dam and a rear
> spoiler or spliter are all good. Not allot going on in the rear end of the
> Pantera until you get up above 165-170+ speeds.
>
>
>
> I am sure I left off other aero mods Asa, Mark, Larry and I and others
> have discussed forever but if ANY OF YOU want to add anything else to
> discuss let us know.
>
>
>
> Doc Engles has done a good job collecting data and hopefully he will out
> together a poop sheet we can share, discuss and further update.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
> *Date:* September 21, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM PDT
> *To:* DENNIS ANTENUCCI <TEAMPANTERA at yahoo.com>
> *Subject:* *Re: Extended A arms*
>
> Dennis,
>
>
>
> As an interim solution you can machine .100” off the back of the upper
> front ball joints and insert an extra .100” of shims on the front side.
> This will give you an extra degree or so.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
> On Sep 22, 2021, at 03:42, DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Morning guys,
>
> I got the extended rear A arms from Bobby before he passed. He thought
> the front offset delrin bushings would get enough caster for 150+ speeds.
> But at 3-4 it is NOT enough caster IMO on those 2-lane roads at speed.
>
>
>
> I am a couple months away from needing the front A arms. In the meantime I
> appreciate the feedback.
>
>
>
> Dennis
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Sep 21, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Johnny,
>
>
>
> Some cars suffer from excessive negative camber in the rear. Some vendors
> make adjustable upper rear A-arms which is super stupid. They are complex
> and extremely expensive. You don’t need adjustable rear arms, you only need
> fixed-length arms that are a bit longer. Then you can adjust alignment at
> the bottom, as normal.
>
>
>
> Byars and Hall used to offer the less expensive, simpler version for half
> the cost, but with Bobby’s untimely death the source for producing them has
> been lost. :(
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
> On Sep 21, 2021, at 22:52, John Woods <johnnyrwoods at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Mike, Dennis,
>
>
>
> I can do the arms. I charge £400 for the service, this includes a
> welded-on camber lock adjuster.
>
> The cost to ship the arms back to you is £42.50
>
>
>
> Please make sure you mark the value way down when you ship them to me
> because we will have to pay something to HMRC when they arrive. I can
> theoretically I can claim this back as I am returning them to you, but it's
> so much paperwork it's not worth my time.
>
>
>
> With original ball joints it is possible to get 7 degrees of castor, but I
> have found in the past Wilkinson's new ball joints don't have quite as
> mush sideways movement (misalignment) so 6 degrees may be more realistic
> with new joints; unless they vary from batch to batch?
>
>
>
> What mod do they do to the rear arms, Mike?
>
>
>
> Regards, Johnny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
> To: DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com>; johnny at harlywax.co.uk
> Sent: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 3:33
> Subject: Re: Extended A arms
>
> Dennis,
>
>
>
> Good hearing from you!
>
>
>
> Yes Pat Mical taught Johnny Woods how to do the upper front A-arm
> modification. It’s not extended—you are thinking of the rear A-arms.
> Instead, the back leg is straightened. That allows much more caster.
>
>
>
> Ordinarily you would have to ship him your A-arms which he would convert
> and ship back to you, which would all take time. As luck would have it, I
> happen to have a set of his already modified arms sitting on my shelf. I
> could send them to you, you could send your old ones to him, he could
> modify those and then send them to me. And you would pay him for the
> conversion and shipping and pay me nothing. His does that sound?
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>
> > On Sep 21, 2021, at 07:57, DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Hey Brotha
>
> >
>
> > How ya doing? Doing great and Asa and I driving back from SSCC road race
> where I averaged 144.
>
> >
>
> > One thing I am interested in doing is increasing caster to 6-7 + improve
> high speed stability. What is your take on that?
>
> >
>
> > Who sells them and what is cost? I have the offset bushings but all I
> have is 3-4. Its a big improvement over stock but at 135++ it could use
> more.
>
> >
>
> > So until my C8 arrives share your genius.
>
> > Pat Mical and Johnny Woods were names Doc Engles mentioned to me.
>
> >
>
> > Dennis
>
> >
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
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