[TPR] Fwd: Extended A arms

Thu Sep 23 13:09:25 PDT 2021

Mike is basically correct, but let inject a few enhancements to what he writes;

The Offset bushings with the .100” shaved upper ball joint will give you a combined degrees total Positive Caster, but the Pantera could use more, like 6-9 degrees of positive caster like the Porsche’s use and to do that you need to cut and re-weld the front upper A-Arms to do so in a fixture.

The biggest gain to stock handling is with a larger sway bar on the rear, 7/8 for narrow body Pantera’s and a 1” bar for the wide body wheelbase

An Air Dam is a must much above 120 MPH, the GTS Air Dam will get you in the 150MPH range with ground clearance, above that you need a Group 4 type air dam that I have had to 200+

If you were to venture above 180, the rear will begin to lift without some aero work.

Designed suspension was with the A-Arms flat and level with the ground front and rear. This should also give you a slight rack. Diffusers work best with a 7 degree rake angle to allow the air to expand, creating low pressure, without breaking up

All the underside Aero is useless without veins and side skirts to maintain the low pressures created.

Larry Stock

Pantera Parts Connection LC
550 Mallory Way
Carson City NV 89701

www.PanteraParts.com
PH  775-283-4411
Fax 775-283-4410
Cell 1-800-DeTomaso 800-338-6627

From: TPR <tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com> on behalf of DENNIS ANTENUCCI via TPR <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
Reply-To: DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, September 23, 2021 at 12:06 PM
To: "tpr at teampanteraracing.com" <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
Cc: Chris Terp <chris at theseminargroup.net>
Subject: [TPR] Fwd: Extended A arms

FYI from Mike. Reed below….

Will qualify my earlier comments below. 

In my experience Offset bushings got got 3-4 negative caster. That Was the only seat-of-the-pants improvement in high speed handling I ever felt.

Extracting air or moving it around the front end helps but not something anyone needs on a Pantera IMO on speeds below 130-140. 

Easy mods that should help are

1. A raised back end rake

2. Stops to prop up front hood to extract air

3. Better coil over double adjustable shocks and GTS springs like Koni or Aldan

When you get into high end speeds above sustained +|- 130 mph speeds on these uneven 2-lane roads adding side skirts and an air dam and a rear spoiler or spliter are all good. Not allot going on in the rear end of the Pantera until you get up above 165-170+ speeds. 

I am sure I left off other aero mods Asa, Mark, Larry and I and others have discussed forever but if ANY OF YOU want to add anything else to discuss let us know.

Doc Engles has done a good job collecting data and hopefully he will out together a poop sheet we can share, discuss and further update.

Thanks

Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
Date: September 21, 2021 at 11:52:07 AM PDT
To: DENNIS ANTENUCCI <TEAMPANTERA at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Extended A arms

Dennis,

As an interim solution you can machine .100” off the back of the upper front ball joints and insert an extra .100” of shims on the front side. This will give you an extra degree or so. 

Mike

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 22, 2021, at 03:42, DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:

Morning guys,

I got the extended rear A arms from Bobby before he passed.  He thought the front offset delrin bushings would get enough caster for 150+ speeds. But at 3-4 it is NOT enough caster IMO  on those 2-lane roads at speed. 

I am a couple months away from needing the front A arms. In the meantime I appreciate the feedback.

Dennis

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 21, 2021, at 11:05 AM, Mike Drew <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:

Johnny,

Some cars suffer from excessive negative camber in the rear. Some vendors make adjustable upper rear A-arms which is super stupid. They are complex and extremely expensive. You don’t need adjustable rear arms, you only need fixed-length arms that are a bit longer. Then you can adjust alignment at the bottom, as normal. 

Byars and Hall used to offer the less expensive, simpler version for half the cost, but with Bobby’s untimely death the source for producing them has been lost. :(

Mike

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 21, 2021, at 22:52, John Woods <johnnyrwoods at aol.com> wrote:

Hi Mike, Dennis, 

I can do the arms. I charge £400 for the service, this includes a welded-on camber lock adjuster.

The cost to ship the arms back to you is £42.50

Please make sure you mark the value way down when you ship them to me because we will have to pay something to HMRC when they arrive. I can theoretically I can claim this back as I am returning them to you, but it's so much paperwork it's not worth my time.

With original ball joints it is possible to get 7 degrees of castor, but I have found  in the past Wilkinson's new ball joints don't have quite as mush sideways movement (misalignment) so 6 degrees may be more realistic with new joints; unless they vary from batch to batch?

What mod do they do to the rear arms, Mike?

Regards, Johnny

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Drew <mikeldrew at aol.com>
To: DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com>; johnny at harlywax.co.uk
Sent: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 3:33
Subject: Re: Extended A arms

Dennis,

Good hearing from you!

Yes Pat Mical taught Johnny Woods how to do the upper front A-arm modification. It’s not extended—you are thinking of the rear A-arms. Instead, the back leg is straightened. That allows much more caster. 

Ordinarily you would have to ship him your A-arms which he would convert and ship back to you, which would all take time.  As luck would have it, I happen to have a set of his already modified arms sitting on my shelf. I could send them to you, you could send your old ones to him, he could modify those and then send them to me. And you would pay him for the conversion and shipping and pay me nothing. His does that sound?

Mike

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 21, 2021, at 07:57, DENNIS ANTENUCCI <teampantera at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 

> Hey Brotha

> 

> How ya doing? Doing great and Asa and I driving back from SSCC road race where I averaged 144.

> 

> One thing I am interested in doing is increasing caster to 6-7 + improve high speed stability. What is your take on that? 

> 

> Who sells them and what is cost? I have the offset bushings but all I have is 3-4.  Its a big improvement over stock but at 135++ it could use more. 

> 

> So until my C8 arrives share your genius. 

> Pat Mical and Johnny Woods were names Doc Engles mentioned to me.

> 

> Dennis

> 

> Sent from my iPhone

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