[TPR] Open Chamber heads with Pop-Up pistons?
David in Durango
adin at frontier.net
Mon May 28 11:15:46 PDT 2012
Charles, and all,
The long block came home Saturday. The motor was a my friend's shop (for the hone and some experience). Although the plan was to disassemble, inspect, order parts, and reassemble . . . sometimes a new problem [1] would arise - loose timing chain - and after some research/order/wait for parts another week has gone by. As it turns out, there is now a gear drive instead of timing chain. Good or bad I don't know.
When I found a new cam (and dizzy gear) were needed it seemed prudent to put an oil sprayer in the end of the oil gallery (to spray a little oil on the dizzy gear). Since the oil galley plugs are harder than your ex-wife's heart which makes drilling a .025 hole impossible, we drilled the plug, and tapped it for a holley .025 jet.
But to answer the question; NO, not yet. Most of the changes planned have been addressed so it "should" really be only prep and installation. We will see.
cheers,
David
[1] For instance. I had read one could modify a Weiand water pump to open the warm up port (like God and Henry intended) and so discussed it with John (machinist, welder, fabricator, blacksmith for over 30 years) and showed him some pics I found. Yeah, no problem. Turns out that whoever tapped the npt threads for the plug that closes off the passage way we were drilling into, tapped the hole way oversize. So at John's shop - 2 miles south of a town with NO hardware store - we decided to proceed. Upon disassembly we found a npt plug at the bottom of the hole and a second npt glued on top so it appeared to be a water pump with proper machine work. As a final solution, John handmade a npt plug (this means hand controlling the thread cut on the lathe) to properly plug the top of the hole.
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Engles
To: 'David' ; 'Asa Jay Laughton'
Cc: tpr at teampanteraracing.com
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [TPR] Open Chamber heads with Pop-Up pistons?
Dear David,
So…..is the Pantera now powered? Up and runnin’??
Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
From: tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com [mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 12:14 PM
To: Asa Jay Laughton
Cc: tpr at teampanteraracing.com
Subject: Re: [TPR] Open Chamber heads with Pop-Up pistons?
Before I fat-thumbed the previous reply I was going to that one could get a set of KB pistons designed just to give some compression fo us po boy open chamber folks -that is what is in my "Hall mini Brute" - I have pictures if interested. (no pistons for sale- for info only)
My refresh ended up: rings and hone, bearings, cam, lifters, springs, flywheel resurface, flow and port intake (just for fun). Valves are good but put in the best seals.
I believe Dan told me this was a common fix.
Happy trails
On May 28, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
Alright so this brought a question to my puny brain...
We'd all probably love to have closed chamber heads. But what if all I had were some open chamber heads. Would using a pop-up piston work to get the quench down further? Or is it a losing proposition on this head?
What are the opinions of the collective Pantera knowledge base?
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired& Shelley MarieSpokane, WA****************************** http://www.racingagainstautism.comhttp://www.teampanteraracing.comhttp://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 5/28/2012 9:35 AM, Asa Jay Laughton wrote:
I wouldn't mind picking up another pair of 4V quench heads. I have two or three pair of open chamber, but only one pair of closed chamber. Not that I'm greedy or anything.
I wouldn't mind a pair of Aussie 2V heads with quench chamber, but I don't think they'd be the best for racing, as I believe you are pointing out and Chuck has validated since he's moved on as well.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired& Shelley MarieSpokane, WA****************************** http://www.racingagainstautism.comhttp://www.teampanteraracing.comhttp://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
On 5/28/2012 6:56 AM, Mad Dog Antenucci wrote:
Hey Doc,
Since I do it so well let me play devil's advocate here from half way around the world.
Why use Aussie heads that only produce 375 to 400 Hp in street form when you can run closed chamber Cleveland heads that someone has thrown away or 302B and/or any similar alum heads that make so much more Hp (475-525 at the REAR wheels)?! ;-]>
If the answer is, "because I don't have cool 302B alum heads like you dawg"....or its, "the Aussie heads are just better"...then I gotta say since I am IN Australia now and I am hearing from the boys down under who want to seriously go fast that they all want quench or closed chamber heads. They will pay YOU to take their Aussie heads!!! Yea even in street modified weekend race engines that get driven on the street. ;-]>
Working for sheep herders wages down under I'll take a Aussie BLOCK if I can find one cheeep ecause I know they gotta be special because Jack keeps telling me that like he keeps telling me someone is gonna make a NEW Cleveland block to replace my 10 over Cleveland magic jack block I got from JB but I don't think thats gonna happen. I suspect in September when I come back to the States to kick some bow tie ass at Silver Sate it will be driving that same stock Pantera averaging somewhere around 150 Mph then driving to the Green Lantern to shame all the bow tie slackers pretending they are real
racers ;-]>
Okay rant over. Is it too soon to mention who won the Indy? ;-]>
PS did the Drewster ever get his engine running again?
Aussie Dawg Down Under
Team Pantera Racing
"No One Gets Out Alive"
<www.teampanteraracing.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
To: 'Asa Jay Laughton' <asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at list.realbig.com; tpr at teampanteraracing.com
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [TPR] Piston Ring Rotation.
Dear Asa,
The first and second engines I built were done with the standard
ring positioning protocol. I then learned the truth: the rings *move*
during engine operation. They do not remain permanently in place. The
first two engines were with Aussie heads and made 401 and 385 hp.
The next two engines were built with 4v heads and absolute
carefree disregard for the prime ring directive. Dyno testing showed 440
and 485 hp.
I am about to begin the next engine and I will continue with my
laissez-faire piston ring assembly. It doesn't seem to hurt engine
performance.....!
Scientifically yours, Chuck Engles
Original Message-----
From: tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com
[mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com] On Behalf Of Asa Jay Laughton
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 1:59 PM
To: detomaso at list.realbig.com; tpr at teampanteraracing.com
Subject: [TPR] Piston Ring Rotation.
Most of us are aware of the proper ring positioning when assembly an engine:
http://www.351c.info/gallery2/d/218-1/ringspacing.jpg
The two compression rings should be spaced about 30* (or about one inch)
from the front centerline of the piston, one on either side. The oil ring
segments are the same on the opposite side of the piston toward the rear.
The illustration above shows this quite well.
But do the rings rotate after assembly?
A few years ago at the POCA Fun Rally, Jack had an expert who was familiar
with pistons. He said indeed the rings do rotate, so in the end it doesn't
really matter where you index them to start with...
they're going to move.
Today I recorded the ring locations on my forensics engine. I had been
careful not to turn the rings on the pistons when I removed the pistons/rods
from the engine previously. Because I can't insure they didn't move at all,
the relationships below are rounded. Here are the results. My "timing" is
from the -front- of the engine, moving clockwise. The piston position at 12
o'clock is the part facing front, the position at 6 o-clock is at the rear.
The first compression ring is at the top, the second on the bottom.
Piston 1st Comp 2nd Comp Oil/Oil
#1 8 o-clock 4 o-clock 4/2
#2 10 11 12/3
#3 10 2 10/1 (probably the only one closest
to installed)
#4 8 8 8/8 (All ring gaps were lined up)
#5 9 2 5/5
#6 12 9 5/5
#7 5 4 6/5
#8 9 3 3/7
As you can see, they are all over the place. I'll work up a good
illustration and post it later.
Does this mean I won't index them the next time I assemble and engine?
Actually, I'll most likely still index them when assembling, only because
I'm anal about those things and I do believe spacing them does assist with
initial break in. If they are spaced the same, I look at that as an easy
path for compression gasses to get past. In other words, gases might get
past the lower tension oil ring segments and past the gap in the bottom
compression ring but then they'll have to travel around the edge a while
before they meet up with the gap in the upper ring. In the end, it may not
really matter.
Asa Jay
Pantera Research Institute, Pacific Northwest
--
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
******************************
http://www.racingagainstautism.com
http://www.teampanteraracing.com
http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
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