[TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Tue Jun 21 11:14:52 PDT 2011
Yeah, sorry.... the GT40 is a SVO cast iron Windsor block with aluminum
'Cleveland' B351 heads.
Mike Trusty (is he reading this?) _hates_ steel gears since that was what
took out his engine at Silver State years ago.
He says he's used bronze gears for thousands of miles with no drama. Install
them correctly and keep them oiled.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 10:32, Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>wrote:
> You make a lot of sense Kirby ....I would add something Doc mentioned and
> that is 'attention to detail'. My original stroker rebuilt was 4 years ago
> and then 2 years ago when we added Mike Trusty's efi, Russ did a general
> engine over haul....at that time I asked about the steel gear replacement
> and Russ recommended we NOT add it to a Cleveland since he didn't have the
> experience running a steel gear on a Cleveland.
>
> And for all those coulda-shoulda-woulda reasons I have continued to use a
> bronze gear in my Pantera with the Cleveland stroker. Which also has the
> hyd roller and after allot of road miles and WOT open road races it still
> looks fine and mine will stay in the Cleveland as well.....psi is 70 hot.
>
> You didn't mention if the GT40 is running a Windsor...I assume it is.
>
> *Mad Dawg Antenucci
> Team Pantera Racing*
> *The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
> *www.teampanteraracing.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> *To:* Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
> *Cc:* Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>; tpr at teampanteraracing.com;
> David in Durango <adin at frontier.net>
> *Sent:* Tue, June 21, 2011 6:44:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???
>
> Well, I'm hearing all the assumptions, theories, personal experiences, etc.
> etc., but I'm leaning towards the material side of things.
> i.e., although they say they are compatible, they might not be?
>
> I would like to point out that I ran 90psi oil pressure hot in my 351C for
> 15 years without a problem. Startup cold would peg the 100psi gauge for a
> good five minutes. Never had any distributor gear problems. Not a single
> one.
> I did not have a roller cam though... It was a flat tappet solid lifter cam
> ... with triple valve springs. 7000rpm was my shift point of choice.
> So I personally rule out the 'too much oil pressure' theory.
>
> Fast forward to the most recent engine in the Pantera.
> The steel gear on the hydraulic roller that was in the Pantera looks fine
> and it will stay in the motor.
> The steel gear on the solid roller in the GT40 still looks fine, so it will
> stay.
> I will keep checking them both until I'm confident.
>
> Although I keep hearing about 'compatible' and 'it should work'... This
> stuff is happening too much and for too long now.
>
> I'm going with a bronze gear in the new Cleveland going into the Pantera
> and live with the maintenance issue until I'm confident.
>
> The material they make the roller cams out of is obviously the main problem
> and getting a distributor gear to mate with it and live is the issue.
> Of course, as we all know, the BEST solution is a dry sump motor. No need
> for a distributor gear!
>
> I rarely hit the rev limiter. The one in the Pantera is so dramatic, it
> takes your breath away. i.e., the ECU shuts off the fuel.
> Yes, I know... it's an ancient Haltech F9a, but it works and I don't care
> what y'all think.
> I can tell you that it is anything but 'soft'. It's more like a launch
> through the windshield.
>
> The GT40 uses an Electromotive 'soft' setup. It uses fuel and spark. Much
> for touchy feely.
>
> OK, that's me done ranting for the morning. Man.... that soap box seemed to
> have grown!
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 17:25, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Dear Dennis and Russ,****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I am such a dope. I hear that the non standard oil
>> pump, i.e. high volume and/or high pressure pumps, puts extra stress on the
>> gear interface. I guess that I am not able to appreciate that it would be
>> **that** much greater. I do however yield to experience.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I can see that an external pump should solve that
>> problem. I think that would actually be a dry sump system?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For the rest of us thinking about the choppy waters of
>> roller cam conversions, it would seem to me that the answer is prevention
>> with gear compatibility, gear fitment (both gear to gear and gear to block),
>> attention to normal oiling passages ; attention to the special oiling hole
>> at the end of the left lifter galley; bushed lifter bores, a good normal
>> volume and pressure oil pump and attention to detail.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles: Rookie Engine
>> Builder****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> PS: just now the newest issue of Circle Track has an article “The New
>> School Cleveland”. No discussion of roller cams, but an interesting
>> Cleveland engine building article for circle track.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com [mailto:
>> tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com] *On Behalf Of *Mad Dog Antenucci
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 20, 2011 3:28 PM
>> *To:* tpr at teampanteraracing.com
>> *Subject:* [TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> FYI....responses from Russ to the Pope
>> ****
>>
>> *Mad Dawg Antenucci **
>> **Team Pantera Racing* ****
>>
>> *The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing **
>> *www.teampanteraracing.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ----- Forwarded Message ----
>> *From:* russell fulp <musclebyrussell at hotmail.com>
>> *To:* adin at frontier.net
>> *Cc:* Dennis Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Mon, June 20, 2011 1:05:12 PM
>> *Subject:* RE: Poly Dist Gear???****
>>
>> Answers below in color.
>>
>>
>> *Russ*
>> *B.L. Machine & Russ Fulp Racing Engines*
>> 1100 E. Orangefair Lane
>> Unit E
>> Anaheim, CA 92801
>> 714-870-8570
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> From: adin at frontier.net
>> To: teampantera at yahoo.com; tpr at teampanteraracing.com
>> CC: musclebyrussell at hotmail.com
>> Subject: Re: Poly Dist Gear???
>> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:02:03 -0600****
>>
>> It would seem the cam gear ate the dizzy gear (sharp teeth on the dizzy
>> gear) but I wouldn't mind knowing the sequence of events. Well you are
>> partially correct. With the added pressure from the oil pump it try's to
>> hold the dist. shaft in place and the cam says no way and it turns,
>> machining the gear on both pieces in the process. You see with any friction
>> surface you have to have the hardest surface on the stationary end or the
>> cam. the steel gear by itself is softer than the cam gear but with added
>> back-pressure from the oil pump ,it becomes about the same and that is why
>> it ate up both surfaces. If you had an external oil pump you could run them
>> together all day.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> In addition it would be good to know:****
>>
>> Was the dizzy gear specified incorrectly? Everything was probably O.K.
>> to start with but the oil pressure was your culprit.****
>>
>> Supplied incorrectly?****
>>
>> The little oil squirter trick: why didn't Ford to that?They did not plan
>> on them turning any kind of RPM that it would necessitate added lubrication.
>> Why do we have to (guess I know the answer to this one)?****
>>
>> do we know any history of these poly gears? too new? The Poly gear is
>> softer and will mate with any cam core. Just make sure that you get a gear
>> for a Cleveland or a big block as most of the gears out there are smaller
>> O.D. and of the Windsor variety.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Curious.****
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- ****
>>
>> *From:* Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com> ****
>>
>> *To:* David in Durango <adin at frontier.net> ; TPR List<tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
>> ****
>>
>> *Cc:* russell fulp <musclebyrussell at hotmail.com> ****
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, June 20, 2011 10:08 AM****
>>
>> *Subject:* Poly Dist Gear???****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Russ,****
>>
>> If you read Mike loooong ;-)> report below you'll see his steel gear ate
>> his cam ....I know that will come as no surprise to you and yea I remember
>> what you said about NOT running a steel gear but my question is what if
>> anything have you heard about the *poly gear*?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Thanks
>> ****
>>
>> *Mad Dawg Antenucci **
>> **Team Pantera Racing* ****
>>
>> *The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing **
>> *www.teampanteraracing.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* David in Durango <adin at frontier.net>
>> *To:* TPR List <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
>> *Sent:* Mon, June 20, 2011 7:46:23 AM
>> *Subject:* [TPR] ? - for the dawg****
>>
>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera fall down go boom :<(
>> To: detomaso at realbig.com
>> Message-ID: <844d.67fcf0e2.3b2fdbb8 at aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Those of you who were at the POCA Fun Rally last weekend perhaps noted
>> that
>> every single Pantera that drove to the event, safely drove home at the end
>>
>> of the weekend, save one.
>>
>> Unfortunately, that one was mine. :<(
>>
>> I've been loving my new 408 stroker Cleveland, which has utterly
>> transformed the car. I had a wonderful drive up and over the Sierras,
>> tempering my
>> enthusiam a bit in deference to the handful of Panteras that were running
>> with me (also a reflection of a recent run-in with Johnny Law that I
>> managed to
>> escape from for about $300, but my next ticket will result in points on my
>>
>> license).
>>
>> At the track event, the first thing I did was to bleed my brakes, as my
>> pedal was soft and squishy. I got a bit of trapped air out, which
>> improved
>> things, but they are far from where they should be. I think this is a
>> result
>> of some uncharacteristically horrible engineering that took place when my
>> friend who restored the car years ago, fabricated new brake lines. For
>> reasons unknown, he deliberately placed a big loop in each line, which is
>> seemingly guaranteed to trap air and result in a spongy pedal--exactly
>> what I have
>> had all these years. I think I am going to trash all the hard lines and
>> start over.
>>
>> But anyway. Once the brakes felt up to the task (although far from
>> perfect), I started driving on the track Thursday afternoon, and the car
>> was much,
>> MUCH faster than two years ago. I'm still very handicapped by my
>> super-crusty tires (my intent was to burn them off at this event and then
>> replace
>> them when I got home) which kept cornering velocities laughably low, but
>> also
>> provided lots of opportunity for sideways antics at relatively low speeds.
>>
>> Two years ago, I would enter the front straight in 3rd gear, upshift to
>> 4th
>> at about 5500 rpm, and just be nudging 110 mph when I felt it was prudent
>> to lift for the first of the three S-curves leading to the hairpin at the
>> end. This year, with all the extra power, I was topping 130 mph.
>>
>> Whee!
>>
>> The thing is, I would reach the 6000 rpm rev limiter well before the
>> turn-in point. My choices were to either upshft to 5th gear for just a
>> moment,
>> then back down to 4th, or to just coast for a bit. Since nobody was
>> paying
>> me for this and there were no trophies on the line, I elected to do the
>> latter. My car has an MSD system with the 'soft touch' rev limiter; the
>> bumpf
>> that comes with the MSD box indicates that there is no harm in just riding
>>
>> the limiter, as it randomly cuts spark from various cylinders to keep the
>> RPM
>> at a predetermined maximum point. So often times, I'd keep my foot to
>> the
>> mat and just ride the limiter for 100-200 feet or more, then lift off and
>> turn in.
>>
>> At the end of the first day, the car was running just a little bit
>> weird.
>> I was having trouble with the idle speed, and in fact the next morning I
>> had to turn the idle up quite a bit.
>>
>> I then went out for a second day of more fun and games on the track, and
>> the motor seemed 'off' ever so slightly. I was driving with a raised
>> eyebrow, and then I came down the front straight and noted that it was
>> well down on
>> power; with my foot to the mat it was 20 mph off at the turn-in point. I
>>
>> determined that I would pull in at the end of the lap for a look-see.
>>
>> Didn't happen. :<(
>>
>> When I got to the steep uphill, the engine started stuttering, and I had
>> my
>> foot on the floor trying to keep it going to at least the top so I could
>> pull off. But just before the top, it went POP and quit, leaving me
>> stranded
>> on the side of the track, and causing a yellow flag in that area for the
>> rest of the session.
>>
>> I figured the distributor shear pin had sheared. There were no other
>> indications, I had fuel, no clanking noises from the engine, so it was
>> pretty
>> apparently an ignition issue.
>>
>> They threw the checkered flag and I coasted down the hill to a safe spot
>> and abandoned the car until lunchtime. Rich Boschert was kind enough to
>> tow
>> it in to the paddock on his flatbed trailer, and then any number of
>> volunteers stepped in to help sort it out.
>>
>> Steve Liebenow offered up some shear pins, and I figured I'd be rolling a
>> short time later. But then the distributor cam out. Bad news.
>> Distributor gear totally mangled. :<(
>>
>> Then we started thinking about getting a replacement gear from Summit,
>> just
>> down the road. But Chuck Melton took a look-see down into the engine,
>> and
>> what he saw was far from good--the drive gear on the end of the camshaft
>> was destroyed as well.
>>
>> Trailer time. :<(
>>
>> Fortunately for me, Rich has to drive within a mile of my house on his way
>>
>> home. He was kind enough to trailer my Pantera back to the hotel, and
>> then
>> back home Sunday afternoon, and allow me to follow behind at the wheel of
>> his lovely green Pantera, so all things considered, this went about as
>> well
>> as could be expected under the circumstances. Sunday morning we had an
>> uneventful drive home, and since we had two other truck/trailers and
>> another
>> Pantera in convoy with us, it was easy to unload the car and push it into
>> the
>> garage, where it now sits, sad and forlorn.
>>
>> Here's some photos of the gear on the distributor. All of the teeth were
>>
>> filed razor-sharp, creating much slop in the timing (the cause for my idle
>>
>> problems no doubt). But then, a number of teeth simply sheared off
>> completely, which caused the car to stop dead.
>>
>> http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=32311
>>
>> When you click on each photo, it opens up in a normal-sized view, but you
>> can select the max size, which shows really excellent detail; you can
>> clearly
>> see where the teeth were literally sheared off.
>>
>> I've since been in touch with Dan Jones, John Christian and others,
>> attempting to determine the cause of the problem. I was using a steel
>> hydraulic
>> roller cam core, and a Crane steel gear advertised to work well with such
>> things. However, I did have a couple of things going against me:
>>
>> 1) Excessive oil pressure. I purposely re-used the oil pump from my
>> previous engine because it delivered 50 psi there (verified with a
>> mechanical
>> gauge) and I did not want high volume or high pressure, both of which are
>> bad
>> for Clevelands. However, my new engine (perhaps due to tighter
>> tolorences) sees the oil pressure gauge pegged. Probably 80 psi at
>> operating RPM.
>> The literature that comes with the cam gear says that it will live with a
>> steel cam, EXCEPT if excessive pressure or volume oil pump is used. They
>> say
>> that rapid wear will then result--which I got. So, since oil pumps are
>> cheap, I'm going to start over from scratch with a new Melling M-84A.
>> (The
>> Summit website is incorrect and doesn't list this for the 351C, only
>> showing
>> it as applicable for the 351M and 400M. But in fact this is a 351C pump,
>>
>> as shown on Melling's website.)
>>
>> 2) Driving on the rev limiter. Although MSD says this about their
>> system:
>>
>> There are two ways to limit your rpms. The rough way simply cuts off
>> ignition spark, which can cause backfiring, extreme engine roughness, and
>> possible
>> engine damage. The gentle way is with these MSD Soft Touch rev
>> controllers.
>> They use sophisticated computer circuitry to drop spark one cylinder at a
>> time, until your engine is at or below its maximum rpm. Those cylinders
>> are
>> then fired on the next cycle, to prevent them from loading up with fuel.
>> The
>> result is smooth rev limiting action without all the rough stuff.
>>
>> The truth appears to be that even this 'gentle' process is rather hard on
>> the system, perhaps aggravated by the fact that I'm running a gear drive
>> instead of a timing chain. It didn't occur to me that running on the
>> limiter
>> for a few seconds at a time would stress the system, but in hindsight (and
>>
>> after consultations with Dan, who hadn't heard of such a thing but
>> subsequently did research and found other stories of people suffering
>> similar damage to
>> mine after running on the rev limiter, regardless of whether they were
>> using a timing chain, gears or whatever) I'm sure that my driving habits
>> on the
>> track created this problem. I'm going to address this by fitting a
>> higher
>> RPM pill in the MSD (the motor is built to go to 6500 all day long but I
>> was
>> being 'conservative' and had a 6000 rpm chip in the MSD) and by avoiding
>> touching the rev limit, if at all possible, and certainly avoid
>> deliberately
>> doing so and just keeping it on the limit.
>>
>> I think the gears were perfect when I drove over the hill to Reno, and I
>> just busted them all to hell at the track.
>>
>> Tomorrow I'm ordering a new cam, same as the old one (did I mention how
>> wonderfully this engine ran?). Dan also turned me on to a new
>> distributor
>> gear. Tri-Tec Motorsports now makes a carbon-reinforced polymer
>> distributor
>> gear for the 351C/460.
>>
>> http://www.tritecmotorsports.com/Carbon_Ultra-Poly
>> -Ford_Distributor_Gears.htm
>>
>> I am going to phone them and see what they have to say. I don't want to
>> run a bronze gear, because of all the maintenance hassles, but a steel
>> gear
>> might not be as good a bet as one of these glorified plastic ones. At
>> this
>> point I think I've got nothing to lose by trying.
>>
>> The motor will come out of the car early next month (no time before then),
>>
>> by which point I should have my new components in hand. With the help of
>>
>> friends more knowledgable than I am (which is most of them, when it comes
>> to
>> engines anyway!), I hope to have it repaired and ready to go in a day,
>> then
>> installed another day later.
>>
>> I will have to pull the oil pan and clean all the metal shavings out (and
>> also from the front of the engine), and the oil pump pickup is likely
>> filled
>> with debris. It goes without saying that the oil filter will be changed
>> as
>> well. While we'll take a look at the bearings while we're in the
>> neighborhood, I'm fairly confident that the rest of the motor was
>> unaffected by this
>> little glitch.
>>
>> We'll see!?
>>
>> Once it's up and running, I'll pull the distributor every few thousand
>> miles to inspect for any signs of untoward wear or failure. I'm hoping
>> this is
>> a one-time situation to be quickly and relatively painlessly resolved.
>>
>> Fingers crossed!
>>
>> Mike****
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 6223 (20110620) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
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>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 6223 (20110620) __________
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>> http://www.eset.com****
>>
>>
>>
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>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> http://www.eset.com****
>>
>>
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>
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