[TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???
Mad Dog Antenucci
teampantera at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 21 08:32:36 PDT 2011
You make a lot of sense Kirby ....I would add something Doc mentioned and that
is 'attention to detail'. My original stroker rebuilt was 4 years ago and then
2 years ago when we added Mike Trusty's efi, Russ did a general engine over
haul....at that time I asked about the steel gear replacement and Russ
recommended we NOT add it to a Cleveland since he didn't have the experience
running a steel gear on a Cleveland.
And for all those coulda-shoulda-woulda reasons I have continued to use a bronze
gear in my Pantera with the Cleveland stroker. Which also has the hyd roller
and after allot of road miles and WOT open road races it still looks fine and
mine will stay in the Cleveland as well.....psi is 70 hot.
You didn't mention if the GT40 is running a Windsor...I assume it is.
Mad Dawg Antenucci
Team Pantera Racing
The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
www.teampanteraracing.com
________________________________
From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
To: Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net>
Cc: Mad Dog Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>; tpr at teampanteraracing.com; David
in Durango <adin at frontier.net>
Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 6:44:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???
Well, I'm hearing all the assumptions, theories, personal experiences, etc.
etc., but I'm leaning towards the material side of things.
i.e., although they say they are compatible, they might not be?
I would like to point out that I ran 90psi oil pressure hot in my 351C for 15
years without a problem. Startup cold would peg the 100psi gauge for a good five
minutes. Never had any distributor gear problems. Not a single one.
I did not have a roller cam though... It was a flat tappet solid lifter cam ...
with triple valve springs. 7000rpm was my shift point of choice.
So I personally rule out the 'too much oil pressure' theory.
Fast forward to the most recent engine in the Pantera.
The steel gear on the hydraulic roller that was in the Pantera looks fine and it
will stay in the motor.
The steel gear on the solid roller in the GT40 still looks fine, so it will
stay.
I will keep checking them both until I'm confident.
Although I keep hearing about 'compatible' and 'it should work'... This stuff is
happening too much and for too long now.
I'm going with a bronze gear in the new Cleveland going into the Pantera and
live with the maintenance issue until I'm confident.
The material they make the roller cams out of is obviously the main problem and
getting a distributor gear to mate with it and live is the issue.
Of course, as we all know, the BEST solution is a dry sump motor. No need for a
distributor gear!
I rarely hit the rev limiter. The one in the Pantera is so dramatic, it takes
your breath away. i.e., the ECU shuts off the fuel.
Yes, I know... it's an ancient Haltech F9a, but it works and I don't care what
y'all think.
I can tell you that it is anything but 'soft'. It's more like a launch through
the windshield.
The GT40 uses an Electromotive 'soft' setup. It uses fuel and spark. Much for
touchy feely.
OK, that's me done ranting for the morning. Man.... that soap box seemed to have
grown!
On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 17:25, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
Dear Dennis and Russ,
>
>
> I am such a dope. I hear that the non standard oil pump,
>i.e. high volume and/or high pressure pumps, puts extra stress on the gear
>interface. I guess that I am not able to appreciate that it would be *that*
>much greater. I do however yield to experience.
>
> I can see that an external pump should solve that problem. I
>think that would actually be a dry sump system?
>
> For the rest of us thinking about the choppy waters of roller
>cam conversions, it would seem to me that the answer is prevention with gear
>compatibility, gear fitment (both gear to gear and gear to block), attention to
>normal oiling passages ; attention to the special oiling hole at the end of the
>left lifter galley; bushed lifter bores, a good normal volume and pressure oil
>pump and attention to detail.
>
>
> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles: Rookie Engine Builder
>
>PS: just now the newest issue of Circle Track has an article “The New School
>Cleveland”. No discussion of roller cams, but an interesting Cleveland engine
>building article for circle track.
>
>
>
>
>From:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com
>[mailto:tpr-bounces at teampanteraracing.com] On Behalf Of Mad Dog Antenucci
>Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 3:28 PM
>To: tpr at teampanteraracing.com
>Subject: [TPR] Fw: Poly Dist Gear???
>
>FYI....responses from Russ to the Pope
>
>Mad Dawg Antenucci
>Team Pantera Racing
>The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>www.teampanteraracing.com
>
>
>----- Forwarded Message ----
>From: russell fulp <musclebyrussell at hotmail.com>
>To: adin at frontier.net
>Cc: Dennis Antenucci <teampantera at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Mon, June 20, 2011 1:05:12 PM
>Subject: RE: Poly Dist Gear???
>Answers below in color.
>
>
>Russ
>B.L. Machine & Russ Fulp Racing Engines
>1100 E. Orangefair Lane
>Unit E
>Anaheim, CA 92801
>714-870-8570
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
>From: adin at frontier.net
>To: teampantera at yahoo.com; tpr at teampanteraracing.com
>CC: musclebyrussell at hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Poly Dist Gear???
>Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:02:03 -0600
>It would seem the cam gear ate the dizzy gear (sharp teeth on the dizzy gear)
>but I wouldn't mind knowing the sequence of events. Well you are partially
>correct. With the added pressure from the oil pump it try's to hold the dist.
>shaft in place and the cam says no way and it turns, machining the gear on both
>pieces in the process. You see with any friction surface you have to have the
>hardest surface on the stationary end or the cam. the steel gear by itself is
>softer than the cam gear but with added back-pressure from the oil pump ,it
>becomes about the same and that is why it ate up both surfaces. If you had an
>external oil pump you could run them together all day.
>
>In addition it would be good to know:
>Was the dizzy gear specified incorrectly? Everything was probably O.K. to start
>with but the oil pressure was your culprit.
>Supplied incorrectly?
>The little oil squirter trick: why didn't Ford to that?They did not plan on them
>turning any kind of RPM that it would necessitate added lubrication. Why do we
>have to (guess I know the answer to this one)?
>do we know any history of these poly gears? too new? The Poly gear is softer
>and will mate with any cam core. Just make sure that you get a gear for a
>Cleveland or a big block as most of the gears out there are smaller O.D. and of
>the Windsor variety.
>
>Curious.
>----- Original Message -----
>>From:Mad Dog Antenucci
>>To:David in Durango ; TPR List
>>Cc:russell fulp
>>Sent:Monday, June 20, 2011 10:08 AM
>>Subject:Poly Dist Gear???
>>
>>Russ,
>>If you read Mike loooong ;-)> report below you'll see his steel gear ate his cam
>>....I know that will come as no surprise to you and yea I remember what you said
>>about NOT running a steel gear but my question is what if anything have you
>>heard about the poly gear?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Mad Dawg Antenucci
>>Team Pantera Racing
>>The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
>>www.teampanteraracing.com
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
>>From:David in Durango <adin at frontier.net>
>>To: TPR List <tpr at teampanteraracing.com>
>>Sent: Mon, June 20, 2011 7:46:23 AM
>>Subject: [TPR] ? - for the dawg
>>From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
>>Subject: [DeTomaso] Pantera fall down go boom :<(
>>To: detomaso at realbig.com
>>Message-ID: <844d.67fcf0e2.3b2fdbb8 at aol.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>
>>Hi guys,
>>
>>Those of you who were at the POCA Fun Rally last weekend perhaps noted that
>>every single Pantera that drove to the event, safely drove home at the end
>>of the weekend, save one.
>>
>>Unfortunately, that one was mine. :<(
>>
>>I've been loving my new 408 stroker Cleveland, which has utterly
>>transformed the car. I had a wonderful drive up and over the Sierras,
>>tempering my
>>
>>enthusiam a bit in deference to the handful of Panteras that were running
>>with me (also a reflection of a recent run-in with Johnny Law that I managed to
>
>>escape from for about $300, but my next ticket will result in points on my
>>license).
>>
>>At the track event, the first thing I did was to bleed my brakes, as my
>>pedal was soft and squishy. I got a bit of trapped air out, which improved
>>things, but they are far from where they should be. I think this is a result
>>of some uncharacteristically horrible engineering that took place when my
>>friend who restored the car years ago, fabricated new brake lines. For
>>reasons unknown, he deliberately placed a big loop in each line, which is
>>seemingly guaranteed to trap air and result in a spongy pedal--exactly what I
>>have
>>
>>had all these years. I think I am going to trash all the hard lines and
>>start over.
>>
>>But anyway. Once the brakes felt up to the task (although far from
>>perfect), I started driving on the track Thursday afternoon, and the car was
>>much,
>>
>>MUCH faster than two years ago. I'm still very handicapped by my
>>super-crusty tires (my intent was to burn them off at this event and then
>>replace
>>
>>them when I got home) which kept cornering velocities laughably low, but also
>>provided lots of opportunity for sideways antics at relatively low speeds.
>>
>>Two years ago, I would enter the front straight in 3rd gear, upshift to 4th
>>at about 5500 rpm, and just be nudging 110 mph when I felt it was prudent
>>to lift for the first of the three S-curves leading to the hairpin at the
>>end. This year, with all the extra power, I was topping 130 mph.
>>
>>Whee!
>>
>>The thing is, I would reach the 6000 rpm rev limiter well before the
>>turn-in point. My choices were to either upshft to 5th gear for just a moment,
>>
>>then back down to 4th, or to just coast for a bit. Since nobody was paying
>>me for this and there were no trophies on the line, I elected to do the
>>latter. My car has an MSD system with the 'soft touch' rev limiter; the bumpf
>
>>that comes with the MSD box indicates that there is no harm in just riding
>>the limiter, as it randomly cuts spark from various cylinders to keep the RPM
>>at a predetermined maximum point. So often times, I'd keep my foot to the
>>mat and just ride the limiter for 100-200 feet or more, then lift off and
>>turn in.
>>
>>At the end of the first day, the car was running just a little bit weird.
>>I was having trouble with the idle speed, and in fact the next morning I
>>had to turn the idle up quite a bit.
>>
>>I then went out for a second day of more fun and games on the track, and
>>the motor seemed 'off' ever so slightly. I was driving with a raised
>>eyebrow, and then I came down the front straight and noted that it was well down
>>on
>>
>>power; with my foot to the mat it was 20 mph off at the turn-in point. I
>>determined that I would pull in at the end of the lap for a look-see.
>>
>>Didn't happen. :<(
>>
>>When I got to the steep uphill, the engine started stuttering, and I had my
>>foot on the floor trying to keep it going to at least the top so I could
>>pull off. But just before the top, it went POP and quit, leaving me stranded
>>on the side of the track, and causing a yellow flag in that area for the
>>rest of the session.
>>
>>I figured the distributor shear pin had sheared. There were no other
>>indications, I had fuel, no clanking noises from the engine, so it was pretty
>>apparently an ignition issue.
>>
>>They threw the checkered flag and I coasted down the hill to a safe spot
>>and abandoned the car until lunchtime. Rich Boschert was kind enough to tow
>>it in to the paddock on his flatbed trailer, and then any number of
>>volunteers stepped in to help sort it out.
>>
>>Steve Liebenow offered up some shear pins, and I figured I'd be rolling a
>>short time later. But then the distributor cam out. Bad news.
>>Distributor gear totally mangled. :<(
>>
>>Then we started thinking about getting a replacement gear from Summit, just
>>down the road. But Chuck Melton took a look-see down into the engine, and
>>what he saw was far from good--the drive gear on the end of the camshaft
>>was destroyed as well.
>>
>>Trailer time. :<(
>>
>>Fortunately for me, Rich has to drive within a mile of my house on his way
>>home. He was kind enough to trailer my Pantera back to the hotel, and then
>>back home Sunday afternoon, and allow me to follow behind at the wheel of
>>his lovely green Pantera, so all things considered, this went about as well
>>as could be expected under the circumstances. Sunday morning we had an
>>uneventful drive home, and since we had two other truck/trailers and another
>>Pantera in convoy with us, it was easy to unload the car and push it into the
>>garage, where it now sits, sad and forlorn.
>>
>>Here's some photos of the gear on the distributor. All of the teeth were
>>filed razor-sharp, creating much slop in the timing (the cause for my idle
>>problems no doubt). But then, a number of teeth simply sheared off
>>completely, which caused the car to stop dead.
>>
>>http://www.poca.com/index.php/gallery/?g2_itemId=32311
>>
>>When you click on each photo, it opens up in a normal-sized view, but you
>>can select the max size, which shows really excellent detail; you can clearly
>>see where the teeth were literally sheared off.
>>
>>I've since been in touch with Dan Jones, John Christian and others,
>>attempting to determine the cause of the problem. I was using a steel
>>hydraulic
>>
>>roller cam core, and a Crane steel gear advertised to work well with such
>>things. However, I did have a couple of things going against me:
>>
>>1) Excessive oil pressure. I purposely re-used the oil pump from my
>>previous engine because it delivered 50 psi there (verified with a mechanical
>>gauge) and I did not want high volume or high pressure, both of which are bad
>>for Clevelands. However, my new engine (perhaps due to tighter
>>tolorences) sees the oil pressure gauge pegged. Probably 80 psi at operating
>>RPM.
>>
>>The literature that comes with the cam gear says that it will live with a
>>steel cam, EXCEPT if excessive pressure or volume oil pump is used. They say
>>that rapid wear will then result--which I got. So, since oil pumps are
>>cheap, I'm going to start over from scratch with a new Melling M-84A. (The
>>Summit website is incorrect and doesn't list this for the 351C, only showing
>>it as applicable for the 351M and 400M. But in fact this is a 351C pump,
>>as shown on Melling's website.)
>>
>>2) Driving on the rev limiter. Although MSD says this about their
>>system:
>>
>>There are two ways to limit your rpms. The rough way simply cuts off
>>ignition spark, which can cause backfiring, extreme engine roughness, and
>>possible
>>
>>engine damage. The gentle way is with these MSD Soft Touch rev controllers.
>>They use sophisticated computer circuitry to drop spark one cylinder at a
>>time, until your engine is at or below its maximum rpm. Those cylinders are
>>then fired on the next cycle, to prevent them from loading up with fuel. The
>>result is smooth rev limiting action without all the rough stuff.
>>
>>The truth appears to be that even this 'gentle' process is rather hard on
>>the system, perhaps aggravated by the fact that I'm running a gear drive
>>instead of a timing chain. It didn't occur to me that running on the limiter
>>for a few seconds at a time would stress the system, but in hindsight (and
>>after consultations with Dan, who hadn't heard of such a thing but
>>subsequently did research and found other stories of people suffering similar
>>damage to
>>
>>mine after running on the rev limiter, regardless of whether they were
>>using a timing chain, gears or whatever) I'm sure that my driving habits on the
>
>>track created this problem. I'm going to address this by fitting a higher
>>RPM pill in the MSD (the motor is built to go to 6500 all day long but I was
>>being 'conservative' and had a 6000 rpm chip in the MSD) and by avoiding
>>touching the rev limit, if at all possible, and certainly avoid deliberately
>>doing so and just keeping it on the limit.
>>
>>I think the gears were perfect when I drove over the hill to Reno, and I
>>just busted them all to hell at the track.
>>
>>Tomorrow I'm ordering a new cam, same as the old one (did I mention how
>>wonderfully this engine ran?). Dan also turned me on to a new distributor
>>gear. Tri-Tec Motorsports now makes a carbon-reinforced polymer distributor
>>gear for the 351C/460.
>>
>>http://www.tritecmotorsports.com/Carbon_Ultra-Poly
>>-Ford_Distributor_Gears.htm
>>
>>I am going to phone them and see what they have to say. I don't want to
>>run a bronze gear, because of all the maintenance hassles, but a steel gear
>>might not be as good a bet as one of these glorified plastic ones. At this
>>point I think I've got nothing to lose by trying.
>>
>>The motor will come out of the car early next month (no time before then),
>>by which point I should have my new components in hand. With the help of
>>friends more knowledgable than I am (which is most of them, when it comes to
>>engines anyway!), I hope to have it repaired and ready to go in a day, then
>>installed another day later.
>>
>>I will have to pull the oil pan and clean all the metal shavings out (and
>>also from the front of the engine), and the oil pump pickup is likely filled
>>with debris. It goes without saying that the oil filter will be changed as
>>well. While we'll take a look at the bearings while we're in the
>>neighborhood, I'm fairly confident that the rest of the motor was unaffected by
>>this
>>
>>little glitch.
>>
>>We'll see!?
>>
>>Once it's up and running, I'll pull the distributor every few thousand
>>miles to inspect for any signs of untoward wear or failure. I'm hoping this is
>>
>>a one-time situation to be quickly and relatively painlessly resolved.
>>
>>Fingers crossed!
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
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