[TPR] Racing Pantera value - market study

Wed Dec 8 15:13:12 PST 2010

Patrick,

I think the value is simply what other people are willing to pay for it.

Those prices you are quoting are way out of my budget, but there are other
reasons. Bear with me as I tell my 'I want a racing Pantera' story.

I have modified my Pantera quite a bit. I've had it since 1985. It is a
street car. I has good brakes, it has a decent engine at 470hp and after
lots of suspension changes, I think it handles very neutrally and I've had
it on the track many, many times. But to make it faster was going to move it
away from being a decent street car. So....

When I left the US and moved to Brunei for a year (which became five
years!), my plan was to build a Pantera for race only purposes. Here in
Texas, Tom Upton successfully campaigns a Group 4 that he had Hall build
years ago. Tom has modified his car extensively since he got it from Hall.
He races in the CVAR (Corinthian Vintage Auto Racing) here in the US and is
is usually one of the top three finishers. He was hounding me for years to
join him at the track with 'my' car.

I went through a planning period and actually bought two cars. One was a
stock body that had lots of parts with it and was nearly complete. The other
was a shell with steel Group 4 flares and a half finished roll cage, etc.
etc. Very incomplete.

As I added things to my spreadsheet, I realized that to make a competitive
car similar to Tom's, I was going to spend close to $150K.

I had communicated with Mike Trusty as well during this time and one day he
asked me why I was doing a racing Pantera. I could get a Superformance GT40
for much less money.
It would handle better since it is a racecar from the beginning, it was much
lighter, etc. etc.

I went the GT40 route and I don't regret it. I still enjoy my Pantera, but
the GT40 is definitely much better on the track. That's why I still don't
have a 'racing Pantera'.

The cars you have listed are, indeed, very interesting, but they are too
expensive for me and besides... what do I need with a THIRD car?

For what it's worth,
Kirby

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 15:44, Patrick Hals <patrickhals at gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the value of a good reliable quick racing Pantera ?
> For the moment, in Europe, you have several VERY interesting race Panteras
> for sale, but NONE SELLS...
> Why is that ?
> Several REAL factory GR4's are announced between 200.000 euros and 390.000
> euros. ( VIN's 2343, 2344, 2873 and possibly one other in Germany )
> A replica ( original GR3, VIN 5855 ) is announced 298.000 £ . This car
> raced
> LMC this year, and was the ONLY one to finish. Another one ( 1189)
> belonging
> to Jean Grazziani in Corsica ( priced reduced at 185.000 euros ) doesn't
> find a buyer either, however it is a superb very very quick car that I
> inspected myself at Le Mans Classic 2008.
> A Danish Pantera L based GR4 is announced 145.000 euros, and is a damn
> quick
> car ! Winning several races, a.o in Spa and Germany.
> The "mouth watering" Michael Erlich GR3 - GR5 car ( not even a REAL GR3 car
> ! ) that we all saw on Youtube in Spa Francorchamps, is announced 370.000
> euros  ( and it's not even a real factory GR.3 )
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-GiX7DxBBs
> It took me more than 18 months to find a suitable buyer for my Andy Warhol
> prestigious factory GR4 car ( winning the 1000 km of Monza in 1972, a.o) .
> The car never raced after me ( best Pantera at LMC 2006, 21st overall, best
> Pantera lap)
> I also forget real GR3 cars, ( not talking about " claimed" Gr3 cars) ,
> like
> the real grey VIN 1070 of Eric Moskovicz, original condition throughout at
> 150.000 euros, fully restored Gerard Marcy's VIN 5006 Bang & Olufsen at
> 260.000 euros ( ! but she looks like a brand new car with patina, amazing
> resto, the best I've seen and tested) and all the fake "real" and others.
> Stephane Poux has been desperately trying to sell his GR3 ( converted Gr4 )
> VIN 7490  for the last five years or so ( but his price is more than an
> original GR4...) and the car never ever saw a track ( apart from YouTube)
> In the States, there is factory GR4 2824, a beautiful and extremely quick
> car, belonging to Dick Lasselle, and VIN 001 ( group 5 - group C ,
> belonging
> to Dave Adler and his associate) . Those cars are not finding a buyer , and
> they've been offered for sale for a long time !.
> What would be the value of the Kleinpeter's wreck ( you can only keep the
> VIN plate ) or, on the other opposite, apparently immaculate and pampered
> Dennis Quella tube car, or Greg Esakoffs ( my favourite " bestial" tube
> cars ) ...
> Are we all dreaming ? ( up or down, willing to buy the best rarest Gr 4
> factory car  for nothing, or selling "tributes" for the price of a real
> car.
> Are there any " young" buyers, or only nostalgics of the 70's.
> In Europe, building a GR4 replica will cost more or less say, 100.000
> euros,
> this is not peanuts, but it ain't much for a car like that. And it will
> keep
> its value. ( not like modern cars)... It doesn't necessarily means the car
> will be quick, ... lots of promises and not hold ( I've experienced that
> unfortunately ) . Should we start building replicas ( like I do for one of
> my sons ) or "invest" in the real stuff ( that might be slower than the
> replica )
> How come GT40's are easily reaching 1.000.000 to 1.500.0000 euros, while
> there are more than 100 original race cars ( 13 original Pantera GR4's in
> existence today) And let's talk about Porsche, or Ferrari, where price is
> skyrocketing ( while the performances , compared to a Pantera, are so-so?)
> Poor marketing, bad reputations ( gragility, overheating, gearbox??? we all
> know it ain't true, but the others don't )
> I ask you, the Gurus... What is the real value ? or, alternatively, what
> should we do to get our cars priced right ( or more) ?  To me today, owning
> a pantera is just like playing the lottery... whatever you buy. But, at the
> end of the day, the FUN is IMMENSE.
> There are so few people who know that ( or who tend to forget it ) ! and
> yet, to me, it was the FIRST element that came into consideration : FUN !
> I BCC some friends who, I know, will have an interesting point of view, (
> that I will copy if they allow me) however they are not part of the present
> list ( sorry for them...)
> Pat
>
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